I give up doing ATC whant to know why read on....

Back to Board Index

I give up doing ATC whant to know why read on....
Geoff Server 13th Jun 2012 18:43:11	I thought to myself this evening I would do some ATC for the wonderful chaps on FSOpen who are flying. So, looked at the web site to see the flight plans to see were everyone was going and guess what? No one had logged a flight plan. thsi is not a one off either. I have over the past week or two thought about doing ATC and on checking the flight plan page over 70% arte not logging a flight plan. I am not saying everyone is not doing it but at 70% that is quite a high percentage. as we have such an easy system to log a flight plan and evenyor route why oh why are quite a number of pilots not using it? i can not understand it. I have heard in teamspeak saying "no one doing ATC this evening" Well guess what, us ATC chaps don't know were you are all going so, no surprise there is no ATC. I put it to the management team that if a player is flying and they have not logged a flight plan then they are told a couple of times and if thay do not do it, then off to another session they must go. There are some really good ATC Controllers in FSopen and ATC makes it great fun to fly in a session. So come on chaps log a flight plan (if you do not know how to do one ask) and you might get ATC on departure and arrival and that will make it all the more fun.
Geoff Server 13th Jun 2012 18:46:24	Sorry about typos above my keyboard was playing up now working OK... You hopefully will get the drift of my post above. Happy Flying!
James Nugent 13th Jun 2012 18:58:51	+1 on this It's frustrating to see this on the homepage under Flight Plans. I have decided against doing ATC a few times simply because I don't know where the traffic will be. Also, people should take the time to enter the route they are following in their plan. It is becoming a pain to ask pilots over a busy radio if they are 'GPS DCT' or otherwise. Also, if you're not completely comfortable following airways, don't use them. If you see a computer-generated flight plan with an airway, please go in to the Flight Planner in FSX and make sure your route sticks to every waypoint on the airway.
Geoff Server 13th Jun 2012 19:33:43	Thanks for your support on this James
Mick McG 13th Jun 2012 19:34:21	Greetings fella's, I feel a bit cheeky putting my two penn'orth in here particularly as I haven't controlled on the server for months (pressures of rw you understand). But you know me, I can't resist! I'm going to be "devils advocate" here and offer an alternative view. Of course I accept Geoff's principle argument that it is helpful that pilots file at least their destination and a rough routing but I think to make it mandatory is a little too draconian and threatening to boot them if they don't file will likely lead to us losing pilots. A better way forward would be to educate our members in best practice and have a notice somewhere prominent requesting pilots to file their flight details for the benefit of any potential ATC. As to where to open up? I might be on dodgy ground but the old addage "build it and they will come" springs to mind. Open up somewhere sensible, post that you're looking for trade and surely someone will call you. One brings two as they say on the cricket field! One last thing(and this really is tongue in cheek), James said "It is becoming a pain to ask pilots over a busy radio if they are 'GPS DCT' or otherwise". Busy radio? When did that last happen? Maybe on an event night but other than that is it really ever that busy? Now that I've stirred things up a bit I'm off on me hols cruising around the western med for a couple of weeks. I'll keep my eye on the forums to see what's occurring (yeah sure I will, lol) but in the mean time, clear skies chaps and keep the faith. M
Geoff Server 13th Jun 2012 21:18:46	Costa Cruise! LOL
Lawrence Mancey 13th Jun 2012 21:36:50	HaHa^^^^^ lol and i agree Geoff i wanna get some training for my ATCO 4 exam but cant cause i dont know where people are flying. I admit i dont always file a flight plan either but i am defintetley gunna start just for the ATC! Thanks for saying what we are all thinking Geoff :)
Laurence Woodside 13th Jun 2012 23:47:27	Many of the points raised are valid points and within our current capabilities we can advise members on courteous ways ATC may be assisted. Many of the aspects of Fsopen are obviously familiar to old dogs such as myself but not necessarily so to new members of Fsopen. To that end I will cover a few points here but compile a page on the website of as part of Mick suggestions - Best Practice within Fsopen. Many of the issues raised are simply matters of education and a simple matter of courtesy between ourselves such as: How to enter the correct details which allow ATC to see and identify each aircraft properly. Simply putting your callsign in the Tail Number section of the ATC Name dialogue box results in ATC seeing you correctly. In my case eg Tail Number: G-WOOD results in ATC seeing me as G-WOOD Or if I select an airline I only put in the number I require Eg Airline Call Sign: BAW British Airways or DLH Lufthansa followed by Flight Number:235 results in ATC seeing me as BAW235 or DLH235 respectively. How to file and submit a flight plan. Using Pilot Assistant select the flight plan tab enter the details of departure and destination choose a flight path or enter your own using something like FSCommander(paste the flight plan details and waypoints into the comments section) IFR or VFR flight level and submit. Procedures whilst flying within controlled airspace and in Teamspeak The proper protocol when flying is to be in the Unicom channel. The Lounge is for general socialising, with chat rooms provided for specific areas of conversation and lastly, if ATC is active, within that channel if you are flying in that controllers airspace. If you wish to avail of any online ATC then please contact the controller upon entering his airspace and follow his given instructions. If you do not wish to avail of ATC then, as a matter of courtesy to other members flying , remain outside controlled airspace at all times and remain within the Unicom channel. Lastly, I have heard much said of late that the title of ATCO for our ATC seems to frighten people off or that they seem too professional. To this, my response is, we have always offered a free service of providing tuition to people who wish to learn more advanced aspects of ATC. This is not a compulsory course or in any way imposed upon people. The people who choose to learn this aspect of advanced ATC do so at their own behest, often spending a great deal of time and effort in so doing, and on conclusion the acquisition of the general reference title ATCO merely indicates that they have completed and understand advanced aspects of ATC. Nothing more, nothing less. Simply put, ATCO is AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL OFFICER. Every person who has undergone ATCO training, for want of a better description, is told that his first priority in providing ATC is to ensure that all pilots no matter what their understanding of ATC are to be treated politely, respectfully and professionally. To date not one “ATCO” has failed in this and they continue to provide assistance, encouragement and guidance to all other members. Even those ATCOs who have moved on still provide assistance to FSOpen members. I have and will continue to encourage any member to learn and advance their skills whether it be in flying skills, ATC or PC issues. This is to me a pillar and cornerstone of our community.
Christian Smith 14th Jun 2012 11:09:04	Mick- Devil's advocate- I simply don't believe this. All valid points chaps. In a way I can see Mick's point about logging on and hoping the traffic will come- Flights often focus around the VA routes- so I guess we must go to the pilots every now and then! But the issue of course remains, do we actually know theyre doing the VA routes- hopefully your post will start getting some plans filed Geoff. Best wishes one and all.
Gordon Thorpe 14th Jun 2012 14:45:26	i have tried to sought out the v.a. to fit in with atc. after talking to atc members for advice, they pointed out they would like to do atc where they feel comfortable & no the airport, so with this in mind i changed the way the contract flights on the v.a.works this month. instead of the being anywhere in the world i have made them fit into the airports that atc would like.we are doing a months trial of this so this week all flights go into or out of egss,next week eidw & then egph, i have also asked the v.a. pilots to try to do contract flights in the evening as a priority but not compulsory .
David Bartlam 15th Jun 2012 15:39:26	My opinion on this... Ive been a member of fsopen for quite a while now and Ive found my experience of it to be... Okay... Many people havent seen me about because Im quite reluctant to fly live, especially on fsopen. My reason being... When I try and fly and use ATC, because my knowledge of ATC, patterns, procedures etc arent the greatest, I'm often spoken to in quite a rude manner when I can not hear the controller or accidently do something I shouldnt... With all due respect, this is a virtual game. Thats all it is. If we were all brilliant at it, surely we'd be behind a yoke and pedals worth more than a few hundred quid or behind a radar screen worth more than our house. Some people just want to fly and enjoy it. We all know what certain folk on gamespy are like whizzing around in the nice shiny military jets, but I use this server simply because I enjoy it. I like the fact there are rules in place and certain specifications required... But, at the end of the day, arent we all just trying to have a bit of fun? Sometimes I feel the fun is being taken out of the equation simply because people treat fsopen like a real airline and take it to a certain level where people such as myself would rather just play in free flight. I did hear someone mention the other day how fsopen has many members that just come in once or twice then arent seen again... Instead of asking yourself "Why are they leaving?", turn that around to "Why arent they staying". Im sure youll get slightly different answers. Flight plans, yes they only take a minute to do, either through teamspeak or the bot... Sometimes, people just want to get up in the clouds so fast that it doesnt cross their mind. Just get on teamspeak and ask someone to file one if its becoming an issue Some may say im not really entitled to an opinion seeing as though I have just one stripe on my pilot/atc eppaulette.. But, Im a member that uses fsopen so surely my opinion is worth just as much? I think the work that goes into this site and all of the peripherals available; missions, flight strips, pilot assistan, open control etc are a credit to the people making them and to FSOpen as a whole. I think the whole site and idea of fsopen is brilliant but I think there needs to be a greater understand between the "Old dogs" and the "new dogs"... Getting the courage to pipe up and chat is hard enough, let alone following all the procedures that are expected. Just my opinion :) Keep up the good work!!!
Christian Smith 15th Jun 2012 16:36:14	David, rank only signifies your ability to fly certain procedures etc. There's nothing significant about it, and when flying, particularly with an ATCO, as Laurence pointed out, they will extend greater patience, time and manner to you in ensuring that you're given the right instructions nice and early (and not to complex). So really, that is irrelevant on your opinion- and what counts is that you're a member of fsopen, as you pointed out. I think if you have been spoken to rudely you should mention this to a manager so it may be noted. No-one should be spoken to without respect as we all started exactly the same.
Gary Stallard 15th Jun 2012 17:04:09	David,a very well written response of which i agree 100% I try to remember to fill in the flight strip but with a memory of a gold fish it sometimes passes me by while trying to set up an fmc,sort out a sid route and star.I always fly one of the pmdg jets so i have some idea of what im doing but no experiance of using atc,If im heading to an airport where atc sets up while im flying i will divert as im not at ease dealing with atc at this time.im sure many others are not comfortable using the mic and is the reason they use free flight.As you said keep up the good work guys
David Bartlam 15th Jun 2012 17:21:36	I agree Christian, when I have come online and had a go using ATC, once with you after a VFR flight, I had enjoyed it. Its just sometimes there are people doing it who get fed up with saying the same thing twice or having to help people along there way. As time goes on, Im getting the hang of it. Its not the hardest thing in the world to do, after all, its just a case of stating where you are and then following instructions... Its not rocket science but it can be quite nerveracking when youre say 2nd in the pattern and have 5 behind waiting for you... I just think that before toys are thrown out of the pram, people should consider all the aspects... As I said about the flight plan situation, people just want to get up in the air. I was flying along earlier and someone (Cant remember who) came into the Unicom channel and asked a younger member to file a flight plan. Thats all it takes. If you ask them and they dont do it, yet intrude within control Airspace... just boot them out. At least then theyve been warned and gone against it. :)
Geoff Server 15th Jun 2012 18:46:08	I expected a bit of a responce but you guys have provided great really constuctive feedback all positive to the progress of Fsopen. From the people that have known me for a long while on FSopen know that I when time permits I do throw a curved ball in to the forum to get some feedback and the posts have been left the management and all members with a lot to think about in movig FSopen forward to make it a great GAME to PLAY. I will, as I always have done, since FSopen was formed, support it and keep in the the air and do ATC. I know there was not a lot, acually none, DONT GO GEOFF posts but I will not hold that against anyone when landing and I am doing ATC. Thanks again for the feedback and some really great points. See you all in the skys or in Micks case on a reef in the Med!Oh does anyone know what Mick ment by (pressures of rw you understand)in his poat. Post in the forum if you know... Should be good for a laugh.. I recon it is ?
Mick McG 16th Jun 2012 00:16:51	DON'T GO GEOFF!!! There you go Buddy! :) rw pressures = too much to do (packing) and no time to do it (well about 30 hrs really). And surely you mean "beach" not "reef"? Back to the subject of the thread though - This is exactly what I like about FSo. We have a difference of opinion, we share ideas and we resolve issues as a mature community. There are some excellent posts here - one of the best threads we've had in a while - with different views and arguments illustrated in an articulate fashion. David and Gary's views speaking for the silent majority are particularly welcome and they make great points about the way we (as ATCOs) can be perceived when we try to be "punchy". Having said that, the guys doing ATC are only trying to provide a good level of service and it requires some cooperation from the pilots if they want a reasonable level of realism. However, Laurence and Christian both make the point that as ATCO's we try to offer as much help and guidance as we can whilst keeping it "real" for other users. That's always going to be a compromise and we're not always going to get the balance exactly right. Still, we do our best, we have a blast doing it and that's why we keep coming back. The one thing I would add is that doing the job for real is way easier than it is online, simply because of the varying degrees of competence you get with FSX flying. Why else do you think I've not been on much lately? It's much too stressful - I can't even work the flight strips properly so it makes no odds to me whether someone has filed their route in PA or not!!! Just kidding.....or am I? Right, I'm getting grief from my better half so I'm off to pack me speedo's. See you in July chaps. PS BTW, radar screens don't cost much more than your desktop PC - it's the software and radar head itself that's the expensive bits. It'd cost my house and all the rest of the houses in the town where I live - around £4M for the one I use at work - about the same as Geoff's garage doors I reckon. ;-)
Gary Stallard 16th Jun 2012 07:49:06	Morning guys,Just thought i would add a couple of points to gordons post,the VA routes have been set up to fit in with ATC,because they are comfortable with the airports.In other words they know every departure,arrival sid star transistion and blade of grass at that airport.A lot of us might have spent most of the flight trying to pick a star for arrival then once near the airport told to fly direct to waypoint that you have absolutley no idea where it is.you then proceed to crap yourself looking for it on the chart while trying to fly the aircraft with a 747 about to dissapear up your tail pipe.I dont have the luxury of a first officer to deal with the fmc and charts.BTW i use some software called aivlasoft electronic flight bag which is in my opinion is far superior to flight sim commander,you can download it for 30 day free trial,check it out guys.i sugest sticking one of the atco at dallas fort worth with about 10 of us departing and landing in all directions and see how they shape up at an unfamilar airport and see how they get on.They might then appreciate what its like for some of us closing in on an airport that we dont know.im sure this thread will run for a while yet,see what you have started Geoff!see u all online later guys. PS Dave any chance of a spell checker in here its taken me ages to write this LOL.
Dave Wave 16th Jun 2012 07:59:50	Use Chrome Gary. Built in spell chacker!
Andy Mooring 16th Jun 2012 10:29:12	Last orders at the bar...Last orders at the bar. Thank you :o)
Joe Clifford 16th Jun 2012 10:36:27	Well then, I guess it's my turn. Everybody has different opinions, I except that! I know, that at first, ATC phraseology can be slightly daunting to new members. Mick Has written very easy to understand guides that will show you the types o things you will be asked and the typical response. If you get a moment, please have a look at them. From a controllers point of view, when we are busy, we don't have a clue who the person we are taking to is,nee just know them as a call sign. That's all we know from our screen. This is where filing flight plans become helpful. The flight plan shows us your ranking and any remarks a that you have put in. If we see that you have 1 stripe, we will operate under the impression that you are a new member and is unsure of procedures, we will happily help you out. If you're new, within the remarks section of the flightplan, just put in, at the end of your route, 'New Pilot'. Then we know! The one thing that has always confused me is why people fly these fancy aircraft where every knob, switch, button ect works? I imagine it's for the realism, for the sense that you have full control of your aircraft as a real world pilot does. You operate this plane, to real world standards, you want to fly it properly. If this is the case, why do people not want to have realistic controllers online? In the real world, pilots have to pass a large number of exams, most of which during the ATPL stage, one of these exams in a radio telephony exam. If they don't pass that, they will never get their hands on a plane, it's not safe. Now I know this is a online game, but if Pilots want to fly planes properly, something that we, ATCO's, don't have a problem with, why then, when we ATCO's want to do it properly, to real world standard, with real world procedure, we can't? SIDS and STARS, Standard Instrument Departures and Standard Instrument Arrivals. People may think they know what these are, but do you know why they are used? You will notice that, that in the UK, only airports with high volumes of traffic will have SIDs and STARs. This is because they need them! If there are a lot of aircraft in the controllers sector, then he doesn't want to be vectoring them everywhere. A plane takes off and follows a pre defined route, the controller then knows that every plane opt hat has filled for that route, will fly that route, and takes the work load off the controller. In real world, mostly of Arrivals, if the sector is not busy, then the controller will shorten the planes filed track and send them to a specific beacon. This really happens! In most cases, STARS, are not programmed into the aircrafts FMC until they are sure that is what they will be doing! I have to agree with Christian, that now days, it's the VA routes that determine where pilots fly. The same as with PMDG's, I have nothing against the VA, but pilots feel that they can't do a flight unless it's documented. Guys, as Gordon has said, VA flights are Not Compulsary. The problem is, you have to been in the right frame of mind to controll, it's not something you can just do when ever. I haven't been in the mood to control, this past week, I've just had to much on my mind. Problem is, it's Stansted and Gatwick airports that I know well, and enjoy controlling at. But when I am in the mood to control there, I wont get any traffic because they are doing the contract fight between xxxx and xxxx. Where there are no controllers online anyway. People say, well let us know the day before that you will be controlling, what if I do that and then not fancy controlling, some people may be disappointed or even annoyed that they had planned a flight with ATC that's now not turning up and they could have done a VAFS flight instead. It's a spontaneous thing. I sense a form of sarcasm in some posts. People say that some controllers have a bad attitude towards pilots. I have never seen his. However what I am seeing is a growing number of people that have bad attitudes towards ATCOs, these people, spend hours, researching airports, learning procedures and phraseology, to make he experience better for all. I hope you all understand that. It is possible that some of the people that have been 'Rude' may not have been ATCO's and just a member that wants to give ATC a go within going with the training program. I'm not sure. I would like to say thank you though, those who give ATC a go, as you are well aware, it's not as easy as made out. Garry, on numerous times, we have done events in the USA, where the procedures are completely different. We cope very well. I do believe it was you that I said, you can go straight through my airspace without calling me even those I was busy because you didn't like ATC. See People, we are nice, we don't bite,. Yes, we may get agertated when people, come in to our airspace and refuse to comply with what we ask them to do, not call back our instructions ect, but this is just common Curtisy. If someone asked you for the time, ou wouldn't just turn around and just walk away, or just look at them straight in the face and say nothing, neither wouldn't you argue with them. This is a pretty long post, so if i read it over and notice anything I've missed then I'll add it after. I'm on an iPad so sorry about the spelling in advance!
Christian Smith 16th Jun 2012 12:35:04	Just a quick note for Gary- As you know ATCOs are trained. They often are trained at one airport, and as you say, get to know the SIDs and STARs of this field well. After some time, they know every descent and fix along your chosen STAR. Where an expedious arrival is given (Open 123 Direct Talla) this is given as it is a fix along your nominated routing. ATC are trained this way so that you need only 1 Approach chart. SO just check your route on the STAR Chart... often you'll be told to direct the final fix so, on a Tweed 1 Alpha arrival to Edinburgh, it would be Direct to Tweed or Talla (if traffic permits) depending on the runway in ue. You can also check the teamspeak description channel for any aerodromes common NAVAIDs. Additionally, if you wish to fly your full STAR simply state this to the controller (Open 123 Request complete STAR for training) - No ATCO will pull you off the STAR if this is your request. The issue that I'm picking up, from both yourself and David, is actually not that of ATCOs but more general ATC. For this reason I completely defend the ATCOs, so anybody who is trained, who you feel is being rude- please let us know- it's kind of a cornerstone for the training of these controllers to be polite, patient, and more importantly to teach and train controllers and pilots in helping them understand and learn a little more. As Joe says, ATCOs spend hours learning their aerodromes- trying to reflect real world practice- this isnt to try and make things harder- but actually as a controller I find things more challenging and interesting knowing I have to follow procedures. Sending aircraft to appropiately sized stands, along correct taxi routes for example is just a basic ground technique that adds a little bit of interest for controllers. Finally as controllers, providing aircraft give us a shout early enough- we can literally cater to whatever! Be this a Cessna 152 wanting to practise a STAR a 9000ft or military aircraft wanting to cut over the top of the aerodrome. Your rank indicates to us the complexity of the instruction to give. Mick said that he thinks this to be harder, and whilst I can't exactly agree as I'm not in RW I fully see his point. It's no new news to anybody that i control on VATSIM too. On there pilots must be able to accept the instructions their given. On here, controllers must be able to accept the skill of the pilots. Thats what sets FSOpen apart. No where else on the web has such diversity which is willing to accept anybody regardless of the skill when they join. And of course, thats why we should be proud. I've done an old school long post here, but I guess the main point is, I really want to know the controllers that new pilots have problems with. Anybody can provide ATC, so Gary, if you know SIDs and STARS perfectly thats great, but your controller might not have a clue what you're talking about hence all the directs to completely random fixes! Again apologise for the length guys! David, just wanted to say, don't be nervous when you think you're holding up traffic, if youre that concerned, and what a bit of space ask to enter the circuit on the non-active side or to temporarily leave the circuit and fly up to the control zone boundary until it gets a bit quieter. Just make sure you tell the controller what you want to do, and 9 times out of 10 they'll tell you its not a problem! Don't try and overcomplicate VFR (I see that alot!) just say in plain english what you want to do :) Alternatively, keep jumping in at the deep end! Whats the worst that can happen- you virtually write off a 30 grand plane :p
Geoff Ambrose 16th Jun 2012 18:19:49	Very simple solution :- Open for the HOST to check box: Eject players without a Flight Plan. Then if the HOST wants to host a session where there is ATC, that requires a Flight plan, he can set that option. Will Pilots Complain -- INITIALLY YES Will they GET OVER IT --- YES (Its real easy to file a flight plan -- and is done IN THE REAL WORLD !!) As for those Pilots that "Just REFUSE" to file a flight plan -- if you think about it, theyt are probbaly NOT the sort of pilot you want on your server.!!
Gary Stallard 16th Jun 2012 18:32:01	Hi Christian I take on board all you have put in your post and appreciate how much time you guys put into ATC, having said that i would like a fiver for every hour i have spent leaning to fly a default aircraft through to the pmdg jets.A year ago i thought PMDG was what the wife got once a month.The point im trying to make is that as you guys are so good at what you are doing a lot of people feel intimidated and maybe why i never see many guys in the atc rooms.The other reason being that there is only so many times you want to fly to Gatwick or Stanstead, A good friend of mine does atc in gamespy at glasgow do you know how boring be at margo at 26000 feet becomes after a while.He did join fsopen a couple of weeks ago but seems to have gone i dont know why.IF i have pissed any of you atco guys it was not my intention and apologies if i have Last point then im done,on the question of rudeness i was told when i joined that you could fly in any room you liked be it the lounge unicom or room 1 2 3.a couple of days ago while on final after nearly a 4 hour flight a member who shall remain nameless came poking his nose in asking if we was flying or not as we had been in the room a long time,i did not say what i wanted to but was polite and he left, please clarify the rules as to flying in fsopen or next time he will be told to JOG ON
Gary Stallard 16th Jun 2012 18:42:14	ABSOLUTLEY AMAZING IDEA GEOFF WHY DID NO ONE ELSE THINK OF IT.KICK EM ALL OUT!
Christian Smith 16th Jun 2012 18:47:45	Thanks Gary, I understand the point you're making! Yes I hear your point about same airports. I'm only really comfortable with Glasgow, Edinburgh, Gatwick, Birmingham and Leeds (on occasion). So I understand that these would eventually get boring. Whilst personally I prefer to fly from and to these airports (Just so I dont need to bother with charts) I can understand that eventually it would be nice to go elsewhere. I've not been offended by any of your posts (I'm kind of hoping that I give a good enough service not to be included- I like to train and help other people and generally don't get shouty etc :P) Oki doki- I'm not able to give an answer to this one (Cue anybody) - When I'm flying I'm in UNICOM / With ATC, and when I'm not- I kick around in the lounge / Chat.

You need to Log on to post a reply.

Back to Board Index

Forum help