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| Ground ATC | |
Phil Arkwright  3rd Feb 2010 23:15:34 | Yes, Another one of my suggestions. (Oh god)
Dave today did an excellent job at atc today at Glasgow. Best ATCO there is in FSOPEN,I think personally, and i'll tell you why. He's not lazy like some of you ATC's out there! :) Once an aircraft has landed you don't say "Taxi to gate at own discretion". Its just like taxing to the runway. You give taxiways back and a gate number. Dave was Radar today and he wasnt Ground so if he can do it whiles doing everything else im sure someone doing ground can. Thanks Just adds a bit more realism to the server Phil |
Dave Wave  4th Feb 2010 10:59:26 | Thanks for the comment Phil, but I'm not the best at ATC. There are quite a few better then me!
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| Richard Stuchfield 4th Feb 2010 13:08:34 | Good job Dave.
Nice comment Phil. It's ideal if someone can give you gate numbers and taxiways. I find the trouble is familiarity with multiple airports and having the correct documents available. Taxiway designators are pretty easy to find but stand allocation charts are often substantially different in real life to the location of stands in FSX. That said, we (ATCO's) should all aspire to give this information if you have the charts/docs available, it certainly does make it more realistic. Conversely, there are many pilots that don't have stand allocation charts and have no idea where to park if you actually give them a stand number. Perhaps both pilots and ATCO's could make an effort to have the relevant charts available when participating in multiplayer sessions. Richard |
Andy Mooring   4th Feb 2010 14:14:30 | Just to add, I'm a little offended by being called "lazy", especially if there is only 1 controller operating the entire airfield and its very busy. It leaves the controller no choice but to say "taxi to...." as 100% concentration is needed to watch over aircraft leaving and arriving. |
| Dave Wave 4th Feb 2010 14:34:07 | Geoff and I have started using FScommander, its not perfect but at least you can easily see the taxi ways as laid out in fsx. You can download a version for free but it times out every 30 minutes. Might be usefult to load, screen dump a chart of the taxi way layout and print or keep as an image for reference. This is really useful when we go to airports outside the UK, something I want to do more of.
I was using this for gates as well yesterday, problem as you say though it doesn't match up with real charts most of the time. Birmingham is a particularly good example. However, by giving a stand number the pilot can choose to follow this instruction or not depending if he has charts to hand. Saying gate of your choice is a bit lame. Andy, I think Phil's point is if I can do it while covering radar then thoose just doing ground should be able to manage it which is a fair point. |
| Paul Craven 4th Feb 2010 20:49:03 | hello dave. sorry about this again. but can you let me in so i can atlease apologise to geoff.
cheers |
Matthew Firth  4th Feb 2010 20:52:54 | Whilst were on the subject of stand allocation, it may be an idea for the ATC to download Vatsim CRIB sheets for the airport, which include the stand ranges for the different airlines (real world ) and aircraft types.
An example would be: http://www.vatsim-uk.org/regions/midlands/downloads/EGBB%20vMATS%20Part%202.pdf (Page 7 of that particular document) Adds more realism, maybe excessive, but if you got time makes a good read! |
| Paul Craven 4th Feb 2010 20:55:20 | hello matty . can you tell someone anyone on the server to come into easternhops for i have an apology to make to geoff |
| Matthew Firth 4th Feb 2010 20:57:58 | Craven09,
I am completely unaware of the situation you have on Fsopen.co.uk, but I would suggest you email one of the managers with the address provided on the site if you have a problem, rather than spamming the forum which is more likely to get your permemantly removed from the website. Matthew |
| Paul Craven 4th Feb 2010 20:59:09 | ok thanks matthew |
Victor Finstad 4th Feb 2010 20:59:29 | Agree with most of you guys!
Problem seems to be, as Richard mentioned, that not all pilots have charts available. And that includes SID/STARs as well. I have seen many pilots asking for a SID/STAR, and not being able to comply with it(mostly VNAV though)... might be FMCs or charts out of date, but still. Anyway, we are here to have fun, and maybe do a few things IVAO/VATSIM would never allow us to... So enjoy FSOPEN for what it is, an FSX server for ALL! - Victor |
| Paul Craven 4th Feb 2010 21:01:49 | where do i get the email address's |
| Phil Arkwright 4th Feb 2010 22:28:48 | Appologies to all people that i caused offence to. I didn't intend to but just giving some home truth |
| Gavin Ward 4th Feb 2010 23:02:31 | I don't mind taxi instructions on landing (voice traffic permitting) but I don't see how ATC can allocate us gate numbers. There are no gate number markings on the default scenery (which I presume most use).
And as railwayman said... Considering ATCs take time out of their lives to provide us ATC out of the goodness of their hearts, lazy isn't what i'd call them. |
| Gavin Ward 4th Feb 2010 23:06:36 | Bugger, just noticed the parking charts on NATS. Where is the edit button? lol.
Yet more stuff to print out though. |
| Adrian OLeary 6th Feb 2010 10:12:17 | Hi All, having just lost patience with vatsim I thought I give FSOpen a try. I noticed this thread. The following is the NATS site for all UK Airports, HTH.
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index.php%3Foption=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=6&Itemid=13.html Adrian |
| Peter Hannant 6th Feb 2010 14:29:52 | hello all. as im not too good at computers due to my age- lol
can i just tell you all that i have been using jeppesen sim charts. please dont ask me how i installed them no doubt you will find ways to aquire them. please dont blame atc for what standard they give us pilots. i have done some atc duties in the past and find it is sometimes hard to keep everyone happy. i hope this information is of use. and yes you controllers keep up the GOOD work. |
Mick McG  9th Feb 2010 11:54:53 | Hi all,
This is a really interesting thread and goes to the heart of the problem associated with realism vs inexperience within the Flight Sim environment. I'm not familiar with VATSIM or IVAO but I'm guessing that they don't cater much for the "casual" flyer/ATCer whereas FSOpen, for me at least, strikes exactly the right pitch with a place for the disciplined amateur (lol)! Richard and Victor have hit the nail on the head! No-one can be expected to have all the skills and knowledge required to replicate exactly the service/standard you would get if you were flying/controlling for real, so a degree of compromise and patience is always going to be required in this environment. As Dave suggests, there's nothing stopping us all aspiring to become more accomplished flyers or controllers and therefore we, perhaps, should all be more receptive to suggestions for improvement or constructive criticism. Providing it is exactly that! Best regards, M |
| Gordon Thorpe 9th Feb 2010 16:11:15 | WHAT IS FS OPEN?
it is for all pilot nuts of fxs. its for all levels of pilots & atc working together to experiance what each one wants out of fx,swopping idears & chatting to form a club of happy fx nuts all with the same hobby,to do this everybody respects the level of the other person if you want to improve your skills there are many willing to teach you if you just want to remain at your own level then just enjoy what you are doing .THATS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT. the comments on this forum proves that is all working well GORDON THORPE |
| Geoff Server 9th Feb 2010 23:11:55 | See what can happen if you do not give precise gate assignments to Pilots!
ie.. "Taxi to a gate of your choice! [URL=http://img706.imageshack.us/i/201029215728934.png/]  [/URL] |
| Phil Arkwright 9th Feb 2010 23:16:36 | Thanks geoff this finally proves my point :D so stop saying "taxi to gate of your choise!"
:D |
| Geoff Server 10th Feb 2010 11:01:33 | Phil, my previous post does not prove your point it was meant as a bit of a joke to lighten up this tread as it’s all getting a bit serious and silly.
As I frequently do ATC and have been for some time I will endeavour to provide full ATC Coverage from Radar to Ground including taxiway (including progressive taxi) and Gate assignment for arriving and departing aircraft when possible. However, most pilots do not have full ground charts so do struggle and as FSX has no gate numbering it can be near impossible to find the gate assigned. When I am covering all three Radar, Tower and Ground ATC positions and it gets really busy the first thing I will drop is the Gate number assignment to taxi to and if it gets really busy (subject to my skill level) I will ask aircraft to taxi to a gate of their choice via a taxiway (so they will not taxi back on the runway) and that will not change. Calling anyone doing ATC LAZY is not constructive and quite frankly a bit of an insult and, could result is you getting long base legs, long holds, diverts and gates which are really tough to find LOL! So, I would respectfully ask you to think before you leap on your next post. I would suggest you take a very busy airport and do ATC one evening covering all positions and see how hard it can be. I don't think you have done ATC so, I will be happy to move you from your one strip ATC Ranking to two strips and see how you get along and I would be happy to help out. After that session your comments about ATC might be taken more seriously by the hardworking and committed people who provide ATC in FSopen for free hour after hour. I do realise that you were trying to improve the realism of FSopen and constructive comments on this forum has been the backbone of the fantastic growth of FSopen (and Dave’s great software!) but we must not lose touch with why FSopen was opened. To provide a fun FSX Gaming experience for all to enjoy, with players of different abilities. That is what makes FSopen so much fun! |
| Mick McG 10th Feb 2010 11:49:30 | ...See what I mean about this being an interesting thread?
Geoff, I couldn't agree with you more. Great post. Phil, See what you started!? LOL Best regards M |
| Geoff Brayshaw 10th Feb 2010 12:36:02 | Geoff, thanks for taking the time to post your previous message. Spot on! I entirely agree. |
| Richard Stuchfield 10th Feb 2010 13:05:39 | I also agree with Geoff.
Perhaps we can put this matter to bed now. I think the use of the word 'lazy' was unfortunate and I'm sure Phil will acknowledge that we are not professional ATCO's - there are only a couple who have real world ATC experience. Much like the fact that there are only a few pilots that have real world piloting experiece and it would be unreasonable for ATCO's within FSOpen to treat all our pilots as professionals and expect them to operate like a real world commercial airline captain. Let's all try to accept that people are here for different reasons, we have different skill levels and have varying amounts of time that we can dedicate to our hobby. That said, we should all try to be the best that we can when in sessions to enhance the experience for our fellow participants. Richard |
| Phil Arkwright 10th Feb 2010 19:20:49 | Well, Geoff I have done exactly that I did ATC at a major fsx multiplayer server for about 2 years, I have been numerous time to the air traffic control tower at Manchester airport and you cant compare to the pressure your under from playing a computer game.
And you know what, Frankly I dont like being threatened with "Long Base legs, and diverts" So how about you think before you speak aswell. I admit i used the wrong word "lazy and im sorry for that, So what i propose is if the ATC can then they can give the aircraft an option of progressive taxi, or not and defiantly should be given the option if ATC is ground. Once again im sorry geoff and everyone else i offended, it really wasnt what i intended and i hope we can move on from this. So I will, and i hope everyone else will take a moral from this thread and lets think before we write. Thanks Phil Request that this thread is closed in 2 days time when everyone has had a chance to read what i have had to say. |
| Paul Gallagher 10th Feb 2010 20:11:38 | I cant belive that this is so impotant it only a game and if we start taking it to serous we will lose up coming pilots totaly agree if im on taxi and i get givin a gate i will just speed bird=== taxi to gate of my choice alway look on the bright side of life |
| Phil Arkwright 10th Feb 2010 22:13:56 | Yes Paul your absolutely right it is just a game. I acted harsh, and I have said alot of times now im sorry. This thread has got way out of hand, i know its not like vatsim but on all the promotion videos i've watched it says "Pro ATC" which can be argued from both sides.
Look this is ridiculous how far this thread has gone, and as many people have said its time to move on, I will refrain from posting my comments on the forum from now on as i usually say something stupid or something which others may find offensive. So lets leave it at this. i started this so let me make it better and lets close it from now Sorry Phil |
Dale Boardman  10th Feb 2010 22:23:36 | Phil - Being in a VA for 2years doing ATC does not make you any better from any of us on this website (you played a 'game').
Just to add on to that if you have been in an ATC tower, GREAT! But some people on here have been in an ATC Tower and actually done the job first hand... now thats what you call preasure! Threads/comments such as these ones can build up a perception of how people will think about you. So i quote:- "lets think before we write." < This could of been done before you posted your comment Phil, practice what you preach comes to mind... Hopefully we can all move on from what you said, but i think i can speak for a few others about this thread being removed.... No... you post a comment on the forum at your own risk. There's no foul language been used its just people's views/perception...! (Thats the whole point of a forum) "Public meeting or assembly for open discussion..." Regards, Dale. |
| Phil Arkwright 10th Feb 2010 23:06:52 | right, thanks dale for that very helpful comment, you just made the situation a whole lot worse.
Admin - Request my account on fsopen to be deleted. By Thanks |
| Ronnie Glackin 10th Feb 2010 23:29:59 | Phil is there any need for you 2 leave im sure whtever happend can be srted cmon guys a suggestion is a suggestion its nt wrong or right lets just calm down and have fun :) |
| Dave Wave 10th Feb 2010 23:44:40 | Sleep on it Phil.
The problem with forums is people often misunderstand what others say and put their own interepation into posts which is often very different to what was meant by the poster. Do you think I'm talking about you, or other posters? And that's my point, to everyone that's readng this. Only I know what I meant! Phil, I think some of your posts above have almost invited a reaction. If you go fishing expect to catch something. However, to be fair, some of the responses do appear to be verging on bullying so I can understand your reaction. I think in general this is a great community, and it will stay that way so long as members don't take pot shots at each other. Remember, "No politics, just flying" Love you all. Dave |
| Phil Arkwright 10th Feb 2010 23:59:02 | Thanks dave for the comment. Its just the dale's comment "Threads/comments such as these ones can build up a perception of how people will think about you."
Thats what im upset about. I dont want to be always thought as a trouble maker. So if everyone agrees that they can move on then we well see but from some off the comments left, some people are really angrey |
| Paul Gallagher 11th Feb 2010 14:35:26 | apoligize for the comment it was not directly aim at you more fsopen mate dave is right mabay we have took this to far the problem is peopele read down the fourms get to the bottom and think i stick my say on there whitout relizing how it effect some one else the last thing eny one wants is you to leave i think that we all learn from this so come back and let all have fun |
| Andy Mooring 12th Feb 2010 19:34:23 | 348 views and 33 threads.....thats a record for this forum LOL. :o) |
| Andy Mooring 12th Feb 2010 19:34:59 | correction 353 views. :o)
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| Andy Halliday 12th Feb 2010 20:30:07 | Im keepin out of this one but nice reading ;) |
Mike Jones  16th Feb 2010 14:05:47 | Hmmm verey political but interesting reading. |
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